End of the Argument?

[paliwoda]

I am making this post as there are certain members of the party that are debating against this on a matter of opinion and not fact. we are dragging the party down with this whole debate and it is now time to move forward towards election victory!!!!

What is a manifesto?

According to Wikipedia ; A manifesto is a public declaration of principles and intentions, often political in nature.

Why does Scotland need a manifesto for the 2011 Holyrood Elections?
While we already have a manifesto for the Westminster elections, The Scottish elections are a completely different kettle of fish, with different powers of parliament and a completely different legal system (Based on Roman law, compared with English law which has its basis in the French legal system) .
We would look completely stupid and amateurish if we came into the Holyrood elections with a document produced for Westminster, and so the current manifesto needs to be modified to suit these next elections.
Holyrood for example would have very little power over amending copyright in Scotland (Westminster wouldn’t be happy receding power over (C)) although possible (If it came to having to support a budget) we would be best focusing our powers over fighting for a digital Scotland, internet rights, reviewing defamation law (In England and Wales, liable) and government surveillance.
We need a different manifesto for a different election, this is nothing about Scottish nationalism, being British, Scottish Pirates breaking away or whatever. It’s about getting Pirates elected.

What is the Scottish Parliament?

A large amount of the posts concerning this subject have come from lack of knowledge.
The Scottish parliament is a parliament founded for Scotland following the result of the 1997 referendum. The Scottish parliament is a 4 year fixed and made up from a mixed member proportional system. (Meaning we would have party lists, made up of 7 people per region. As we won’t be running constituencies)
I would like to refer you on this is article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament)

Why run in the elections with the banner Pirate Party Scotland?

This was something that was brought up by a member.
This has it’s roots in the political history of Scotland and is mainly due to the fact that in the minds of most Scots parties that run under the banner “of the United Kingdom” are often Tories or rasists.
It also links in with Scottish nationalism and links us with defending the Union of Crowns, something that we as a party shouldn’t be involved in. Using “Pirate Party Scotland” helps us come across to voters as a more local party and not a party that is run out of London, if you look into the situation here that is seen as a problem and by using “of the united kingdom” it doesn’t help.
It was Finlays choice to run under this banner and I support it.

If you have any questions feel free to pm me.

Now let’s get back to getting physical work done, please.

[borgs8472]

Hi

Do you want this moved to member discussion rather than scotland as its addressed to all members rather than just the Scots?

[paliwoda]

I feel it's good where it is, as this is the board where the debate is happening.

[glambert]

I'm happy to let things pan out and see where we end up.

However I don't see myself as being out of order when asking for a membership vote on certain issues, as that's how we've decided on everything we've done so far, not just a group of members doing as they see fit. If there isn't to be a vote on anything, then I wish you the best of luck and will do what I can to help out from afar.

I must take issue with the sentiment that I'm anti-scottish. Over half of my family are Scottish, I'm probably the least anti-Scottish Englishman alive today, I just fail to understand why Scottish people are so, frankly, idiotic, that by Finlay's words would deem a UK party to be Conservative or racist. That's just stupid.

[rancidpunk]

Can anyone briefly summarize for me what needs to be changed in the PPUK manifesto to make it compatible with Scottish law. Has anyone actually drafted a Scottish version of the manifesto yet so that we could all see what the scale of the changes needed are?
I've seen all the links and posts claiming it needs to be changed but I've not seen a summary of all the changes as every thread seems to develop into a tedious bitching match between the Scots and English.
I do get it, the poor Scots/Irish/Welsh have been oppressed and denied their cultural identity for hundreds of years by the Redcoats of the evil, racist, Tory English.
We, however, are all part of the worldwide pirate movement. Pirates aren't renowned for giving a sh*t about nations or nationality, in fact they are famous for not doing so, but we seem to have forgotten that salient point here at PPUK. Am I alone in being only interested in what needs to be done to help pirates win elections wherever they are geographically located?
Pirates have no nation, we fly the pirate flag, we fight anyone, we work together, we see no skin colour, we recognize no deity, we care not a whit what you wear or who you screw.
I love you all!

[cc]

Why does Scotland need a manifesto for the 2011 Holyrood Elections?

I agree that a new manifesto is needed, and I would go as far as to say: our Scottish members should rewrite and redesign the entire thing, if possible. We should tone down the (c) reform stuff, but we should still make sure we say what we stand for...

Why run in the elections with the banner Pirate Party Scotland?

Why indeed. We are called The Pirate Party UK so we can be distinguished from all the other PPs in the world. However, why on earth do we need to say that on the ballot? It should just be "Pirate Party"!!

[borgs8472]

"Pirate Party" isn't any kind of political entity is why, it's an administrative and inter party communication body. Hence you can't actually vote for the Pirate party, just like you can't vote for Communism, Liberalism etc. I think.

[paliwoda]

I'm happy to let things pan out and see where we end up.

However I don't see myself as being out of order when asking for a membership vote on certain issues, as that's how we've decided on everything we've done so far, not just a group of members doing as they see fit. If there isn't to be a vote on anything, then I wish you the best of luck and will do what I can to help out from afar.

I must take issue with the sentiment that I'm anti-scottish. Over half of my family are Scottish, I'm probably the least anti-Scottish Englishman alive today, I just fail to understand why Scottish people are so, frankly, idiotic, that by Finlay's words would deem a UK party to be Conservative or racist. That's just stupid.

Don't worry I wasn't calling you anti Scottish.

[cc]

"Pirate Party" isn't any kind of political entity is why, it's an administrative and inter party communication body. Hence you can't actually vote for the Pirate party, just like you can't vote for Communism, Liberalism etc. I think.

Technically, "Pirate Party Scotland" isn't an official name either, but it is unique enough for people to recognise, as is plain "Pirate Party".

As far as I know, we can call ourselves anything we like on the ballot, as long as it's not "None of the above"

[AndrewTindall]

PPS *is* an officially registered description/title.

[Hamish]

Am I alone in being only interested in what needs to be done to help pirates win elections wherever they are geographically located?

That's exactly why we're arguing for this! So that more people will vote for us! AGH.

[cc]

PPS *is* an officially registered description/title.

In that case what would it take to register "Pirate Party"?

[AndrewTindall]

We already have it:
http://registers.electoralcommission.or ... artydetail

[Finlay_A]

just like you can't vote for Communism, Liberalism etc. I think.

You can vote for the communist party, or the liberal party, I dunno if anyone's registered the etc party

[cabalamat]

Am I alone in being only interested in what needs to be done to help pirates win elections wherever they are geographically located?

That's exactly why we're arguing for this! So that more people will vote for us! AGH.

Exactly.

[rancidpunk]

Am I alone in being only interested in what needs to be done to help pirates win elections wherever they are geographically located?

That's exactly why we're arguing for this! So that more people will vote for us! AGH.

I asked if someone could tell me exactly what needs to be changed in the PPUK Manifesto to make it compatible with Scottish law, not Scottish feelings. If it needs to be altered to comply then that's fine, but if it is to be changed just to make it different from the English one, then why bother?
Recently it has been suggested here that the Scots want/need/deserve a new manifesto, a new name and a Scottish party leader. Whether any of this is needed to win Scottish votes or just 'cos you want your independence is what's confusing me.

[Hamish]

Am I alone in being only interested in what needs to be done to help pirates win elections wherever they are geographically located?

That's exactly why we're arguing for this! So that more people will vote for us! AGH.

I asked if someone could tell me exactly what needs to be changed in the PPUK Manifesto to make it compatible with Scottish law, not Scottish feelings. If it needs to be altered to comply then that's fine, but if it is to be changed just to make it different from the English one, then why bother?
Recently it has been suggested here that the Scots want/need/deserve a new manifesto, a new name and a Scottish party leader. Whether any of this is needed to win Scottish votes or just 'cos you want your independence is what's confusing me.

Well hopefully you'll just trust in us that it is to win votes. My impression none of the people arguing for a new manifesto (and Pirate Party Scotland btw, is NOT a new name, it was used in GE10) are even slightly interested in wanting party independence, quite the opposite, we're all strongly opposed.

As for what exactly needs to be changed, read the first post in this thread. When whoever's writing the manifesto actually sets to work then we'll find out what changes'll be made. That's something I too want to find out, and we can only find out once we get past bickering and start ACTUALLY WORKING.

Sorry, but you don't seem to have read any of the arguments thoroughly.

[cc]

rancid, please don't be mad at them. The Scottish members are volunteering to modify the manifesto for the Scottish election, which is exactly the kind of thing we want to encourage. If they think they can come up with a manifesto that is better suited to either Scottish laws or Scottish feelings, that's decidedly A Good Thing™. And, if they come up with something that won't reflect well on the party, we can always stop them later!

[rancidpunk]

Well hopefully you'll just trust in us that it is to win votes. My impression none of the people arguing for a new manifesto (and Pirate Party Scotland btw, is NOT a new name, it was used in GE10) are even slightly interested in wanting party independence, quite the opposite, we're all strongly opposed.

As for what exactly needs to be changed, read the first post in this thread. When whoever's writing the manifesto actually sets to work then we'll find out what changes'll be made. That's something I too want to find out, and we can only find out once we get past bickering and start ACTUALLY WORKING.

Sorry, but you don't seem to have read any of the arguments thoroughly.

I have read the first post and I've been asking for specifics, not generalisations. I would much rather be talking about proposed changes in the manifesto rather than about if there should be any. It's not that hard to write up a draft manifesto, so why start the debate before you've come up with something to debate?

rancid, please don't be mad at them. The Scottish members are volunteering to modify the manifesto for the Scottish election, which is exactly the kind of thing we want to encourage. If they think they can come up with a manifesto that is better suited to either Scottish laws or Scottish feelings, that's decidedly A Good Thing™. And, if they come up with something that won't reflect well on the party, we can always stop them later!

Yeah, you're right cc,
I can just see where this is leading;
What proportion of our financial resources should be allocated to the Scottish elections?
Should members that live outside Scotland have a say on how the campiagn is run?
How relevant are regional elections when copyright law is controlled by Westminster?
All questions that are going to need answered soon, but until those who are ignorant of how Scottish politics and Scottish law work have the specific differences explained to them, it's not going to be easy for members to make their own minds up and vote on the changes to the manifesto for the Holyrood elections.

[Hamish]

Well hopefully you'll just trust in us that it is to win votes. My impression none of the people arguing for a new manifesto (and Pirate Party Scotland btw, is NOT a new name, it was used in GE10) are even slightly interested in wanting party independence, quite the opposite, we're all strongly opposed.

As for what exactly needs to be changed, read the first post in this thread. When whoever's writing the manifesto actually sets to work then we'll find out what changes'll be made. That's something I too want to find out, and we can only find out once we get past bickering and start ACTUALLY WORKING.

Sorry, but you don't seem to have read any of the arguments thoroughly.

I have read the first post and I've been asking for specifics, not generalisations. I would much rather be talking about proposed changes in the manifesto rather than about if there should be any. It's not that hard to write up a draft manifesto, so why start the debate before you've come up with something to debate?

We didn't start the debate! We agreed that we would do it, then posted so on here, only to be challenged for the decision.