The EU - for or against?

[sidewinder]

For the record, the EU is *not* fully elected. The only part that is elected is the Parliament, which is only just breaking out of its original advisory role (it actually has some real power following Lisbon). The Commission, Council, Court of Orditors and Courts of Justice are all controlled by member states' governments either directly or indirectly.

I think people meant that they would be for the EU if it were fully elected, that's pretty much how I feel as, for example on ACTA, the European Parliament seems beholden to the rather unaccountable EC.

[LePringle]

This is coming from a German: Pro EU.

Yes, there might be some disadvantages for the United Kingdom in the long-term and yes, this opinion is reasonably unpopular in the UK.

However:
We need to get away from this nationalistic ideology. I'm not saying that we're all conservatives [because we're not], but most people still think in nationalities, ethnicities, although they have London as a huge ethnic melting pot right in front of them. We are in a reasonably convenient situation as English has established as a world language of sorts. English is being taught all over Europe and on a constantly growing level. We should therefore stop thinking in nationalities and inter-state-boundaries because boundaries usually hold us back as a species. The European Union, the Internet, the globalization in general, all of this makes us into cosmopolitans more and more, everyday.

So for everyone who regards the greater good [such as me] and is not just interested in their own wealth: Join the Eurozone.

[M2Ys4U]

This is coming from a German: Pro EU.

Yes, there might be some disadvantages for the United Kingdom in the long-term and yes, this opinion is reasonably unpopular in the UK.

However:
We need to get away from this nationalistic ideology. I'm not saying that we're all conservatives [because we're not], but most people still think in nationalities, ethnicities, although they have London as a huge ethnic melting pot right in front of them. We are in a reasonably convenient situation as English has established as a world language of sorts. English is being taught all over Europe and on a constantly growing level. We should therefore stop thinking in nationalities and inter-state-boundaries because boundaries usually hold us back as a species. The European Union, the Internet, the globalization in general, all of this makes us into cosmopolitans more and more, everyday.

So for everyone who regards the greater good [such as me] and is not just interested in their own wealth: Join the Eurozone.

I agree, except for your last point. Entry to the Euro is an impossibility, at least for the next ~10 years. Eventually we should join though, IMO.

[LePringle]

I agree, except for your last point. Entry to the Euro is an impossibility, at least for the next ~10 years. Eventually we should join though, IMO.

Any argument for this?

[M2Ys4U]

I agree, except for your last point. Entry to the Euro is an impossibility, at least for the next ~10 years. Eventually we should join though, IMO.

Any argument for this?

Damn, accidentally clicked back and lost a long post, I'll try and recreate it but it may not come out as well as originally drafted >_<

Firstly, our economy is completely lop-sided; we're too reliant on the financial services industry. We need to re-balance our economy and that takes a long time. We may not achieve a satisfactory result by the end of the next parliament. This has to be sorted before entry to the Eurozone.

Secondly, the mess in the Eurozone will take a long time to clear up, too. What will the currency bloc look like in a few years? Will it still be 17? Fewer or more countries? I don't think anybody knows, and that isn't a good basis for joining up. There are some fundamentals still up in the air, too. There isn't, for example, a consensus on what role the European Central Bank should play.

Taking the decision now, or in the immediate future, would, to take a nautical metaphor, be like trying to decide which port to sail towards while we're in the eye of a hurricane when the vast majority of discussion and planning should be how to minimise the damage to the boat coming out the other side.

I still think that the Euro, fundamentally, is a good idea and that we should join. Just not now, perhaps in 10 years when the economic waters are calmer.

[topperfalkon]

I'm opposed to the EU on principle because it promotes political union with Europe. We share little culturally with most European countries and we don't even share a language. This makes communicating local or cultural issues politically more difficult. Additionally, further ties to the EU might jeopardise our relationship with the Commonwealth nations (which are arguably more valuable to us). It would also preclude us entering into a separate treaty with the US, which may or may not be a good thing.

Economically, the points Jack raised are very valid, although the history of the Euro alone is enough to put me off joining it, ever.

Finally, I've always seen the EU as being a project that's always been more important to France and Germany than to anyone else. France needed a way to ensure German co-operation after the war without making the same mistake that was Versailles. Germany needed to be given the time and the political instruments to rebuild its economy into the position it is in again today. It's basically a large exercise in turning the EU into it's own bloc that acts as a Psuedo-nation, much like the USSR, with the aim of preventing another war in Europe and helping fend of Russia.

[HorusVrae]

I for one am undecided on the matter. The EU while seemingly "taking powers from london" (as the media would have us believe), is the first true example of a multi-country governance and a potential first step towards a single, unified world government. That being said, sometimes it does seem that it all has just been approached in the wrong manner.

As for Britains membership, I do believe that our government should hold a refferendum on membership. Because all this talk of repatriation of powers and veto'ing treaties only to bow to the european court of human rights on deporting someone a few months later is to be blunt, confusing. We should send a clear message to our neighbours. In or Out. And the people of the UK need to be able to make that decision, but only after they have been properly educated on the subject and not under the sway (of what im sure will be exessive) media propaganda and hyperbole.

[elerlo]

Well the idea is great and it is nice to have a bigger body to surround us with all the ideas but I am not in support of how they go about things actually.

I think that they are fair with how they run things but not to convincing with stuff they hold true off.

I would rather see the members run and work on their own just to give them a chance at doing it by themselves.

[JaseHargreaves]

I was at one time pro EU and even liked the idea of a federal Europe, however with the rise of chindia on the global stage, their economic might along with a rising Russia competing for limited resources with the already advanced economies, I believe power needs to shift ever downwards to localised jurisdictions responsible for setting and collecting their own taxes. I believe the EU has a part to play in legislation such as free speech and anti snooping as well as human rights in general, but as an aid to living within our means as a species it is useless. This can only be acheived by localism.

That's my 2c.

[Doclaws]

This is a key area where Pirates really need to think how are core values are affected!

Whether you/we are pro- or anti-EU is in some respects irrelevant. The fact is while the EU is a reality, the UK (and the Pirates) have to engage with it from the inside and be at the heart of the EU's policy process.

So many decisions that members would deem vital to our digital freedom are decided either at the supranational level (in which case the UK electorate has to be represented in such forums) or by the US Congress (in which case an EU view/pressure would have far more influence than a national response.)

As the Internet is a truly global phenomenon, if there is going t be supranational governance of it, we have to be right there at the heart of it.

Individual issues (such as single currency, etc.) have to be looked at partly from the perspective of whether such decisions would enhance or limit the Uk's influence and involvement in EU policy...

[topperfalkon]

I do agree with you somewhat. We do need to deal with the EU and we do need to have representatives at the supranational level. It's worth noting of course that PPSE's existing MEPs are doing a sterling job in that respects, but obviously PPSE doesn't reflect British interests, which we would do well to represent as well.

There is, of course, nothing stopping us from maintaining British interests in the EU (such as fiscal independence and political independence) but providing support where we have common ground in Europe.

Obviously, we need candidates to do this, and the elections are in 2014. That means that by the end of this year we need to be getting candidates ready and trained up for their campaigns.

[liamreed]

I stand on the fence of we're in it now we might as well make the most of it.

[ccerr39783]

Not being born and raised in England or Europe for that matter it's hard for me to say but on the whole I tend to think its a good idea in theory. one market and all but the trouble is most of the other markets are bust and have very little to offer. Where we on the other hand have alot to offer (as far as hand outs go) but on the whole are not doing much better then the rest of Europe. I think England needs to get off the fence though and either go all in or get out... The euro will never work in England does not back it. If they are not going to then we should jump ship and if we do we can also get back to making are own rules and laws..

[tuoni]

Not being born and raised in England or Europe for that matter it's hard for me to say but on the whole I tend to think its a good idea in theory. one market and all but the trouble is most of the other markets are bust and have very little to offer. Where we on the other hand have alot to offer (as far as hand outs go) but on the whole are not doing much better then the rest of Europe. I think England needs to get off the fence though and either go all in or get out... The euro will never work in England does not back it. If they are not going to then we should jump ship and if we do we can also get back to making are own rules and laws..

Well, my current job sees me trading... a penny or two... across the world, including heavy dealings inside Europe. The EEC is A Good Thing(TM) for trade inside Europe. Where I have a problem is the Parliament... or, rather, the Law Makers in Europe. They are, really, two different things.

[ccerr39783]

I must say I agree some of the laws that come out of Europe are getting out of hand you would think they where a joke if we where not forced to follow them.

Not being born and raised in England or Europe for that matter it's hard for me to say but on the whole I tend to think its a good idea in theory. one market and all but the trouble is most of the other markets are bust and have very little to offer. Where we on the other hand have alot to offer (as far as hand outs go) but on the whole are not doing much better then the rest of Europe. I think England needs to get off the fence though and either go all in or get out... The euro will never work in England does not back it. If they are not going to then we should jump ship and if we do we can also get back to making are own rules and laws..

Well, my current job sees me trading... a penny or two... across the world, including heavy dealings inside Europe. The EEC is A Good Thing(TM) for trade inside Europe. Where I have a problem is the Parliament... or, rather, the Law Makers in Europe. They are, really, two different things.

[M2Ys4U]

I must say I agree some of the laws that come out of Europe are getting out of hand you would think they where a joke if we where not forced to follow them.

The same could be said for the UK parliament too.

[topperfalkon]

Unfortunately there's no quick fix here. As tuoni stated (and he should know really as it's his 'real job') the EEC is one of the good products of Europe, but that doesn't strictly tie us into the EU. Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland I think all make use of the EEC despite not being part of the EU. However, the one good thing about the EU itself is that it provides a sense of international legal standards, especially in terms of the ECHR, which comes in a sizeable portion from our own laws.

Again, as tuoni wisely pointed out, the main issue with the EU is chiefly the Parliament and the rest of the legal structure, which ranges from inept to farcical to insane depending on people's moods. There is also a drive towards a greater political and economic unity I believe within the continent that is very much non-existent here, which causes inevitable friction between us and Europe.

The solution isn't particularly clear, although I personally suggest that we do our best to minimise reliance on the EU states, but the only way we can promote our agenda is to have pirates within the EU Parliament. Hopefully we'll get nearer to achieving that aim by 2014.

[M2Ys4U]

Unfortunately there's no quick fix here. As tuoni stated (and he should know really as it's his 'real job') the EEC is one of the good products of Europe, but that doesn't strictly tie us into the EU. Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland I think all make use of the EEC despite not being part of the EU. However, the one good thing about the EU itself is that it provides a sense of international legal standards, especially in terms of the ECHR, which comes in a sizeable portion from our own laws.

The EEC is part of the EU, formerly it was one of the Three Pillars. You probably mean EFTA, the European Free Trade Association. and by extension the European Economic Area, which is the EU27 + 3 EFTA states (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway, excluding Switzerland which rejected the EEA treaty).

Also, the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU (except that the EU is mandated to accede to the ECHR by the Lisbon Treaty; something that the UK is blocking in the Council of Ministers), it is part of the Council of Europe, an all together different organisation that includes 47 member states (including all of the EU27).

Again, as tuoni wisely pointed out, the main issue with the EU is chiefly the Parliament and the rest of the legal structure, which ranges from inept to farcical to insane depending on people's moods. There is also a drive towards a greater political and economic unity I believe within the continent that is very much non-existent here, which causes inevitable friction between us and Europe.

The solution isn't particularly clear, although I personally suggest that we do our best to minimise reliance on the EU states, but the only way we can promote our agenda is to have pirates within the EU Parliament. Hopefully we'll get nearer to achieving that aim by 2014.

IMHO, part of the problem is that the EU Parliament does not have the right to legislative initiative. Only the European Commission can start the legislative procedure. The Commission president, at present, is appointed by the Council and ratified by the Parliament, and his commissioners are ratified en bloc by the Parliament. At least now we have the Lisbon Treaty the Parliament itself will elect the Commission president, but there's still a huge amount of democratic deficiency.


I think one of the other problems is that people just don't know how the European Union works (or doesn't, as the case may be). There's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding around, which only ever leads to distrust of the institutions.

[topperfalkon]

The EEC is part of the EU, formerly it was one of the Three Pillars. You probably mean EFTA, the European Free Trade Association. and by extension the European Economic Area, which is the EU27 + 3 EFTA states (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway, excluding Switzerland which rejected the EEA treaty).

Also, the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU (except that the EU is mandated to accede to the ECHR by the Lisbon Treaty; something that the UK is blocking in the Council of Ministers), it is part of the Council of Europe, an all together different organisation that includes 47 member states (including all of the EU27).

Erp. I need to brush up on my EU facts

/me walks away shame-faced.

IMHO, part of the problem is that the EU Parliament does not have the right to legislative initiative. Only the European Commission can start the legislative procedure. The Commission president, at present, is appointed by the Council and ratified by the Parliament, and his commissioners are ratified en bloc by the Parliament. At least now we have the Lisbon Treaty the Parliament itself will elect the Commission president, but there's still a huge amount of democratic deficiency.

This is true. And with Pirates in the Parliament we would be able to have some greater influence in that decision.

I think one of the other problems is that people just don't know how the European Union works (or doesn't, as the case may be). There's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding around, which only ever leads to distrust of the institutions.

Clearly

(I probably should also not post needlessly and when I'm too tired to think straight, a very bad habit of mine.)

[M2Ys4U]

I think one of the other problems is that people just don't know how the European Union works (or doesn't, as the case may be). There's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding around, which only ever leads to distrust of the institutions.

Clearly

(I probably should also not post needlessly and when I'm too tired to think straight, a very bad habit of mine.)

That wasn't aimed at you, just a general point! Just look at this Euler diagram: - no wonder people get confused, and that doesn't include the internal bodies of the EU.