London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

North East, North West, South East, South West

London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby borgs8472 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:28 am

Notes on style. This was origonally hand written by myself at the Bakerstreet Weatherspoons, 29/11/09. We covered many topics several time due to the free flowing nature of discussion. We covered every agenda item. For ease to reading, I have grouped many items together, and you'll find many miscellaneous points out of order. If someone wishes to edit this further to style and readability, go ahead.

Greater London Pirate Party Agenda

Attendance

Apologies / Lateness

Introductions, informal & formal
Political Experience & Pirate Experience

Proposed Business

Purpose of Meet
Core Policies (decriminalisation of downloading, see over)
Additional secondary & tertiary policies
Purpose of Party – Pressure group vs Electoral force
corresponding membership / funding requirements
Allied Causes – Liberty, Open Source movements, NotoID
Current Affairs
- Mininova
- Pirate Bay
- Gary McKinnon
- EU 3 strikes, ISP Cut offs
- FACT
Core (cont.)
Downloading: TV
Film
(illegally) Software
Anime
Downloading: Warcraft & Games
(legally) FOSS ISOs

Other: cracks, licence breaking, Citrix

Net Neutrality (good or bad thing?)

Roles of ISPs – Large and small, ISP Warnings

Role of Government – hands on vs hands off
legit censorship vs stupid censorship
Australian censorship
Chinese censorship
Work arounds & Encryptions
Phorm

Role of Rights holders – Music Groups (RIAA)
Alternatives (Radiohead Album, Myspace, Live gigs)

Role of Software Developers
DRM

Vendor Lock-in
Support Contracts
Open/Visible Source
Cloud Computing
Microsoft
Linux (Ubuntu)
Redhat

Commercial Piracy
Organised Piracy (the scene)


Minutes begin here

Attendance

Person | Real life job/profession
Gavin – IT Project Manager
Chris – Systems administrator
John – IT Consultant
Eric - Telecoms/Finance
Edmund – Online Advertising

Candidacies
For General Election, we could run in Twickenham as they already held a meet. Gareth whom John and Edmund met felt Gareth is perhaps unsuited to be a pirate party candidate however.
We discussed the success of other Pirate Parties and how we hope to emulate them.
Sweden – 2 MEPs and 7% of the national vote
Germany – 2% of the vote

The Demographics of Pirate Party and voters
Students, young men, otherwise non-voters
Many are in the IT industry,however creative types such as leader Andy

Copywrite

Copywrite should exist
Copywrite is abused
We are developing our new copywrite policies
Downloading should be a free for all for personal use
This applies to media copywrite only
Leave FOSS software areas alone for now.

The PP Copywrite group has decided on a limited copywrite period (e.g.2 years) and longer (e.g. 4 years) with the source placed in escrow for the duration.

Discussions about forum goings on and the person who did the popular #10 petition.

Nominations officer positions, John is very interested in this position.
Internal election procedures, merits of direct democracy verses decisions made by representatives, and at regional level.

Fielding Candidates

Where should they be field, which parts of the county? Where central funding is involved this will almost inevitably be a centrally made decision.
Andy will most certainly run for Worcester, only certainty thus far.
The cost of standing for MP is £500, refunded if you get 5% of the vote
Many, if not most candidates will be 'token candidates' in order to get a name on a ballot paper, we support this.
Eric proposed the 'Mandleson 10' strategy, fielding 10 seats, all in Labour held marginals where votes accrued could be enough to tip the outcome, thus make a difference,
Numbers and placements of candidates will be continually re-evaluate based on funding available.
Additional information should be sought from sources such as the Electerol Commission websites
Overall we need to evaluate what in total we do and don't know as a party about fielding candidates
The ISP monopoly in Hull could be a region worth fielding a candidate in
Gavin will hold a Q&A will nomination officer candidates on the forums so members can make an informed vote on this position.
Further discussion about standard and future electoral procedure needs to be had.

ISPs

Discussions about talktalk's resistance to the latest EU policy.
Agreement that many other ISPs are not potential allies such as the vertically integrated media branches, however we must overall seek ISPs as allies
We support transparent downloading fair-use policies, not misleading ones.
Concern was raised that ISPs are not doing enough to protect customer data, such and sharing information with anti piracy organisations too easily.
Such abuses move into the area of whether Internet access could/should be considered a human right, comparable with water.

UNConference

Being held in Sheffield on the 16th of January
Maybe Dan Bull will attend
Likely there will be opportunities for anyone to speak at this stage.
Rob[link] in Sheffield will be the main event organiser
The event needs a chair
The Chair will do tasks like:
Organise volunteers for around the day
Organise the speeches from the executive
Rules about central funding vs self-funding will almost certainly be discussed
Speeches from policy heads
PR Strategies

“Ich Bin Ein Pirate”
Popular german video from the German Pirate Party. Chris has agreed to get this subbed as it is a good example of the PR we should be putting out.

Chris will be contacting Anime fansub groups, looking for their ideas or support.

UK Internet

We did not reach a consensus on the topic of net neutrality overall
The internet is a candidate for nationalisation due to its nature, or subsidisation
Wimax is a good example of local government effort trumping the investment of private enterprise
This is all needed for provision of broadband to rural areas, a laudable goal that supports remote working and deurbanisation as knock-on benefits.

Public Relations

Get writers / celebrities to advocate the party, e.g. Stephen Fry Tweeting about us
Dan Bull who did the Lily Allen response vid. Could we get him for the conference? Andy is in contact.
[Edmund and Chris are on the record as liking Lily Allen, 2 vs 3]
Could we do fund raising gigs?
Twitter features on the pirate party portal
There are already related Facebook groups
It is important the key feature of our finished manifesto is simplicity
We see no major reforms needed for the Internet Watch foundation (IWF)
We need no political ground to gain in opposing the recent 'Extreme Porn' legislation
We have no love of the advertising technology Phorm for many reasons.
The role of Spotify, is this something we should or shouldn't be praising?
Role of other 3rd party MP3 and media sites, are these our allies or enemies? What's good for PR?
We agree that the commercial Russian pirate sites are nothing good.

The role of government should not to be support old businesses as principle.
The role of (software) as service delivery is a concept we support in principle as it avoids many of the issues (licensing vs ownership) that are so contentious with the pirate party and its members.

Fundamentally we are against organised commercial piracy as it supports crime, drugs, people trafficking and other nefarious behaviours. This should be the main focus of all government led anti-piracy initiatives.

The (Warez) scene is non-commercial so doesn't effect our policies.

ID Cards

Waste of Money
Not effective
We should contact NotoID about allying ourselves on this issue to save having to invent our own separate policies. Eric plans to do this. Similarly Liberty.

Website Matters

Gavin owns pirateparty-uk.com – he plans to do something with this.
Micro-sites for regional parties and candidate sites could be a future development.
The wiki could be used to create a London Portal
Linking to allied sites, we should not reciprocate links, except from an unofficial site.
On the topic of regional involvement and communication, Chris agreed to get invoved in the forums to organise email notifications of activities and the such. Gavin expressed his hesitance about such an implementation, concerned about members being spammed or unable to opt out of such notifications.

The pirate party will not employ a full time employee this site of the General election and party funds are best spend funding candidates to stand.

Edmund suggested we save our money thus far for the European election, however this was not agreed to by 4-1.

Chris elected Greater London Pirate Party secretary

Police DNA retention policy is in need of reform similarly to that of media copywrite, life + 70 years is unsuitable in either case. Again, links with Liberty needs to be discussed on the forum, Chris will repost this.

CCTV – feature creep
We need sound bytes and other PR methodologies in order to persuade people CCTV is an issue that matter to every day people.
We should be able to win such votes even from the Tories.
Electoral Reform, e.g. Proportional representation is not a core value.

Reasons to Dislike the Pirate Party [Chris to repost this]

We don't care about anything else but downloading
Not a real political party
People don't want to vote for this perceived single issue party
Why are we called the pirate party? Isn't that a stupid name?
Why do you defend criminal behaviour?
Why doesn't Lily Allen like you?
What are you good for artists?
You are a bunch of white middle class boys.
Aren't you worried about terrorism?
Why is a DNA database a risk to our freedoms?
Why are you against ID cards?
Do you support Somalian Pirates?

Get News Coverage

Torrent freak has given us some coverage, we should be in contact
Filesoup, Uks biggest file share forum – Chris will contact for coverage
The conference also should receive some coverage
Statement of our copywrite policy should be newsworthy
Likewise our stance on the digital economy bill
Stance on Spotify
Associations will pirate bay likely not beneficial
We need a stance on Gary McKinnon

Chris will inform people of their agreed actions.
Edmund to take summary of notes to wikify for wiki.

Next meeting:
Will be decide candidates further
Next Meeting will be 2nd Jan - 15th period.
Hopefully a larger member turnout next meeting.
Last edited by borgs8472 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
borgs8472
Space Pirate
 
Posts: 1960
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:34 pm
Location: London

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby borgs8472 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:40 am

Action point summary:

* Edmond and John to follow up Gareths suitability for standing for PP in twickenham
* John to put self forward for nominations officer position
* Eric? to follow up Andy and availibility of Dan Bull for Sheffied conference
* Eric to propose his 'Mandleson 10' candidate strategy on the forums
* (Undecided) to follow up suitability of fielding an candidate in Hull
* Gavin to hold Q&A with nominations officers candiates on the forum
* (Undecided) to discuss future internal electerol methods on the forums
* Gavin and Edmond volunteered to co-chair the sheffied conference, they will follow this up happening in unconference forum
* Chris is going to get 'Ich Bin Ein Pirate' subbed already done, no need now
* Chris to contact anime fan sub groups
* (Undecided) to contribute PR discussion to forums
* Eric plans to contact both NotoID and Liberty regarding cross-support
* Gavin plans to do something with pirateparty-uk.com
* Chris is going to contact forum administrator on the topic of regional forum email notifications and the like In progress
* (Undecided) to repost 'reasons to dislike the pirate party'
* Chris to contact Filesoup for support/links Done
* Chris to notify attendees of this thread. Done

Everyone please reply to confirm you'll do what you agreed.

I will
* Get Ich Bin Ein Pirate Subbed
* Contact anime fansub groups
* Contact forum administrators
* Contact filesoup
* Contact attendees.

Later in the week I will repost the chunks from this unless someone beats me to it.
Last edited by borgs8472 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
borgs8472
Space Pirate
 
Posts: 1960
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:34 pm
Location: London

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby JohnB » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:58 pm

Wow... Very much "stream-of-consciousness" minutes :D

So a word of caution, one or two things in there may simply be one person's opinion, or interpretation/what Chris wrote down at that moment, anything in conflict with wider policy discussions to date may be only that and no more. Broadly speaking it reflects discussions that afternoon.

For the action points, I agree with all and was already standing for Nominating Officer. And if you haven't done so already, may I ask please vote for me.
John Barron

"for the duration"
Formerly PPUK executive serving as nominations officer 2010-2011
Pirate Party UK Governor since August 2011
User avatar
JohnB
Buccaneer
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:27 pm
Location: Maidenhead, Berkshire

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby EdmundRW » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:07 pm

Thanks very much for keeping, structuring and typing up those minutes - it's very helpful.
And, while I would agree that opinions expressed in it may not necessarily be the broader party's opinions. I'm happy for those opinions being on the record and taken as such. If other pirates want to look at those opinions and later use them as jumping off points in future strategy/policy discussion then that can only be a good thing for the process in the long run.
Ultimately the wider party may deem in necessary to call a vote to decide whether or not a 3 to 2 vote on whether or not Lily Allen's music is good was truly representative of the party as a whole, and whether or not the regional discussion just totally failed to recognise just how good of an album 'It's not me, it's you' really was.

-I acknowledge that I volunteered to offer to co-chair the conference with Gavin
- I also will summarize these minutes in the wiki. I'll try to get that done on Saturday.
EdmundRW
Deckhand
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:42 pm

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby borgs8472 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:16 pm

I'm currently awaiting access to the members area and an email back from tom the admin. At that point I will repost much of our discussions. Many of the 'what is our policy on...' questions belong there I think.

I'm suscribing to all my posts awaiting for email and pm notifications, I'm gone from the forums until.
User avatar
borgs8472
Space Pirate
 
Posts: 1960
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:34 pm
Location: London

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby Gavman » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:27 pm

Ok so I'm posting here to just confirm what I agreed to action.

- thread to pose questions to candidates (done, posted to members area)
- agreed to co-chair unconference. I am happy to do this with Edmund.
- do something with pirateparty-uk.com. Currently this forwards to the party site but after the new year I will look at doing something else with the site.


Also thank you for takng the minutes at the meet and writing them up here.
* assange () has joined #ppuk
* Obama () has joined #ppuk
* assange slaps Obama around a bit with a large fishbot
User avatar
Gavman
Treasurer
 
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 9:12 am

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby MonkeyJam » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:28 pm

Really sorry I couldn't be there, I had a production to do!!

Sounds like you had a really productive meet up - but just out of curiosity - are we agreeing with TalkTalk, but not with other ISPs?
User avatar
MonkeyJam
Administrator
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 10:58 pm

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby dnotice » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:27 pm

Just got around to reading the minutes. There was a lot more discussed than I thought there would be!

I'm not too concerned if I'm not considered suitable as a candidate, but happy to help out in other ways, e.g. fund-raising via Pledgebank (http://www.pledgebank.com/votednotice), and generally promote PPUK.

PS. It's "copyright" not "copywrite" ;-)
dnotice
Cabin Kid
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:02 pm
Location: London

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby EdmundRW » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:09 pm

Gareth,
If you are still keen on standing for the pirate party then I do recommend coming to the conference and letting a larger group appraise your public face. My concerns were that you seemed a little shy and not that forceful on a number of pirate issues - thus I think you would be more useful in helping to run a campaign than necessarily being a candidate. But it's just one man's opinion and it was early days - shouldn't be the be-all and end-all. We also need to bear in mind that we've yet to see any other candidates!
EdmundRW
Deckhand
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:42 pm

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby dnotice » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:43 am

edmundrw wrote:Gareth,
If you are still keen on standing for the pirate party then I do recommend coming to the conference and letting a larger group appraise your public face. My concerns were that you seemed a little shy and not that forceful on a number of pirate issues - thus I think you would be more useful in helping to run a campaign than necessarily being a candidate. But it's just one man's opinion and it was early days - shouldn't be the be-all and end-all. We also need to bear in mind that we've yet to see any other candidates!

I know it's early days and I am planing on coming along to the conference.
dnotice
Cabin Kid
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:02 pm
Location: London

Re: London Meet 29/11/09 Minutes - Much Discussion Within!

Postby borgs8472 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:53 am

Done all my stuff except contacting anime fan sub group
User avatar
borgs8472
Space Pirate
 
Posts: 1960
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:34 pm
Location: London


Return to Greater London

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

X
We use cookies to provide you the best possible experience on our website. If you continue without changing your settings, we will assume that you are happy to receive all cookies on this website. If you would like to, you can change how your browser controls cookies at any time.
You can also view our Privacy Policy
I understand. Don't show me this message again.